ndab Ah Yes, Medical School: No Snip For You

Wednesday, April 05, 2006

No Snip For You

I receive a diverse set of emails, comments, and suggestions, some of which are good, some are bad, and most thoughtful in some way, shape, or form. But once in a blue moon I receive something so asinine, so irreparably foolish, that I must without hesitation (i.e. waiting for me to get off my lazy ass and writing another Ask The Fake Doctor segment) reply. The winner of my inaugural "Bitch, You're Retarded" Award goes to someone who sent me a comment so ridiculous and upsetting that I actually threw up in my mouth.

The backstory is as follows. After someone linked my circumcision story to an anti-circumcision forum recently, I started receiving comments and emails from people voicing their disgust for my actions. Which is totally fine, as everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am glad they feel comfortable telling me I'm an awful person in so many creative ways (but just in case anyone is wondering, I'm a Jew, so my boys - assuming I ever meet any Jewish girls desperate enough to sleep with me - will be getting snipped). However, among the barrage of hate mail I received was this gem, which bears repeating only to demonstrate how dangerous arrogance and ignorance are in combination:

Aren't you a disgusting piece of shit. Wow. Hopefully one day someone will tie you down and do something as painful. Hell, more painful. You deserve it. As does everyone who has ever had their son or daughter circumcised. At least female circumcision is not as harmful as male circumcision. Not that either should be allowed, but you'd think that they'd do it to girls instead. At least it's not as painful or as damaging.

OK, maybe I am disgusting and a piece of shit, and maybe someone will tie me down one day and do something as painful. Actually, I was watching this porn once and...wait nevermind this is supposed to be serious. Female circumcision not as harmful? Excuse me? What? You might find a legion of women in Africa who take issue with this assessment. Don't believe me? Let's see what the World Health Organization has to say about female circumcision:

Immediate complications include severe pain, shock, haemorrhage, urine retention, ulceration of the genital region and injury to adjacent tissue. Haemorrhage and infection can cause death. More recently, concern has arisen about possible transmission of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) due to the use of one instrument in multiple operations, but this has not been the subject of detailed research. Long-term consequences include cysts and abscesses, keloid scar formation, damage to the urethra resulting in urinary incontinence, dyspareunia (painful sexual intercourse) and sexual dysfunction and difficulties with childbirth. Psychosexual and psychological health: Genital mutilation may leave a lasting mark on the life and mind of the woman who has undergone it. In the longer term, women may suffer feelings of incompleteness, anxiety and depression.

Hmm...and what say you, Amensty International?

[Testimonial] I was genitally mutilated with a blunt penknife.

Maybe male circumcision is evil, maybe not, but discussing it in the same breath as female circumcision or attempting to compare the two is simply wrong, and I have my circumcised penis sans all of the surrounding horror to prove it. Ignorance alone is nothing to be proud of, but most people are ignorant about many things (myself obviously included). However, when you pair ignorance with a stunning dose of arrogance you get statements like this, statements that are sensationalistic, false, and potentially deadly. In other words...

Bitch, you're retarded.

109 Comments:

Blogger sadielady said...

You are my hero.

p.s. I LOVE a circumsized penis...

11:43 PM  
Blogger Kate said...

Hear, Hear!

1:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, I wasn't keen on the post about "the snip" so guess what...I didn't read it. I don't agree with it, but hey, it's not illegal, and it's not my kid's pecker. If that's what you are paid to do, go for your life.

And MAD PROPS for quoting me in the Q&A about the big butts.

3:41 AM  
Blogger Octanitrocubane said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:24 AM  
Blogger Fat Doctor said...

Back when I was sure I'd be single forever, I occasionally surfed the net for rent-a-sperm sites. Found one agency (in California, believe it or not) that offered sperm ONLY to women who would sign a contract stating if the baby produced with said sperm is male there would be no circumcision. I'd be curious to see that contract - would they take the newly circumcised kid away and raise it in a big anti-circumcision commune? Bizarre. Anyway, it appears people who are anti-circs are really, really, really anti-circs.

10:24 AM  
Anonymous IrishRed said...

That comment was left by a female!?!?!? Holy shit batman. I found her blog.. http://www.blogger.com/profile/7873534

Thank you for defending us :) I wish I had a hot single jewish friend to send your way!

11:35 AM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

Good response.

12:50 PM  
Blogger Texas girl said...

I cannot believe this. Plese tell me that she got confused. How in the #@$%@# can you think that female circumcision in any way compares? Loved your response!

1:26 PM  
Blogger Random "Frequent Flyer" Dent said...

i agree, you are my hero. there should be an ignorance pain, every time you are about to say or do something stupid, you should get a lil ice-cream headache warning.

Alhtough this post mighta caused her brain to explode

3:14 PM  
Blogger ArizonaDB said...

My god the stupidity!! It always amazes me that these mental rejects, although unable to form a coherent sentence, are able to figure out how to turn on their computer AND connect to the interweb to share their warped, uninformed opinions.

thanks for sharing the idiocy with all of us if for nothing else but just a good laugh.

3:51 PM  
Anonymous Chris said...

Did anyone else take note of the other ignorant (less ignorant, but still very ignorant) part of that post:
"Hopefully one day someone will tie you down and do something as painful."
Is it just me, or didn't that already happen? How dumb do you have to be to tell a JEWISH man he should be circumsised so he can know what it feels like. I guess just dumb enough to think female circumcision is somehow better.

4:26 PM  
Blogger Erik said...

I just have to say "right on, man." Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that female circumsicion is mutilation, and comparing it to male circumsicion certainly earned them a "you stupid bitch." Keep representing, man.

6:07 PM  
Anonymous aus_med_student said...

I'm a 3rd year med student in Australia and we had a lecture the other day from someone renowed in Aus for his knowledge about AIDS. He said circumcision is considered one way of reducing/preventing transmission of AIDs because the inner foreskin is the most likely place for the virus to get into the body. So perhaps there is a medical reason for it too be done!

2:42 AM  
Blogger Nicole said...

Jeeze there are some crazies out there.

Good response-

6:06 AM  
Blogger Heather said...

What a retarded bitch! Actually, that's not very nice to associate someone like her to those who are mentally challenged.

I checked out her blog. Methinks she is on LOTS AND LOTS of Prozac. Stupid hefer. There's tons of stupid people out there, and being in the medically profession, you are going to meet about half of them.

You rock, Fake Doc. Loved your post, loved your response.

7:27 AM  
Blogger Jenn said...

Hey Fake Doc, I just wanted to say props on the post and the reply. I'm a 2nd year med student in Texas and have seen several circs performed--your description was classic. Perhaps point 3 for dumb bitch is that the parents CHOSE that circ--you didn't grab your forceps and device, swoop in, steal the kid from screaming parents, strap him down and damage his manhood for fun. If she's that anti-circ she needs to be talking to the parents, not the doctor.

8:40 AM  
Blogger Daphnewood said...

Heather, that was soooo good!

8:41 AM  
Blogger Nightshade said...

It is mind-boggling what some people are capable of saying, especially when they know nothing about which they speak; these are the hopeless that will forever infuriate the rest of us!

“Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
-Martin Luther King Jr.

9:52 AM  
Anonymous Tanya said...

What astounding ignorance. I actually had to read the last few sentences of her reply three times, because I was completely horrified that someone would actually claim something so..... so...
FRIGGIN' STUPID.
I don't think any amount of rugged rebuttal ot seering sarcasm could fully rebuff such statements, yet you managed to do a great job of putting her in her place.
By the way, I really enjoy your blog. I visit often.

1:52 PM  
Anonymous IrishRed said...

Ok the final kicker is she is a lesbian....SO she has seen a vagina :) Crazy stupid Bitch......

3:30 PM  
Blogger Estelle said...

Ah yes. How exciting that I have won an award.
The complications from a male circumcision, for your enjoyment, also include death (between 200 and 400 a year in the US, yes I will back that up if you so desire), severe bleeding, degloving, amputation, intense pain (100% of the time), and more.

A simple female circumcision is the removal of the foreskin (clitoral hood). A simple male circumcision is the removal of the foreskin.
However, the clitoris is then still protected by the labia. Still kept moist and free from abrasion. THe head of the penis is not. It becomes keratinized and deadened.
The male foreskin exists for pleasure and function. The female foreskin has no such function.
Even the removal of the full clitoris only dampens pleasure, not function.
Just because something is done in a hospital versus a hut does not make it right. It is willfully and without cause removing a perfectly healthy normal part of a person's body without their consent. It is abuse and mutilation.
I happen to think that if someone tied down an ADULT and removed more than 50% of the nerves in the adults genitalia without that person's consent and without adequate pain relief, there would be an uproar.
MGM is on it's way out. Research for yourself and figure out why. FGM was legal in this country until 1996, less than 10 years ago. Think about it. Almost all of you females could have ben circumcised simply because your parents wanted it. How nice.
MGM is so ingrained into the brains of US people (although it is not practiced widespread outside the US, and illegal in many countries) that we think it's okay, and FGM is this horrible thing (which it is. Both are). FGM and MGM both involve mutilating the sex organs. Circumcision of both sexes involves removing the foreskin. The male prepuce has a helluva lot more purpose than the female.
And yes, I am a lesbian. Intimately acquainted with the vagina and I can tell you that removing the clitoral hood wouldn't affect sex all that much. I am not on prozac by any means, and methinks Heather must be reading someo other blog. I am also a school teacher and a foster parent. I happen to have one son who is ours by birth, who obviously has not been genitally mutilated. His penis is his, not mine. It is not my choice to remove his ears, his breast buds, his toe, his arm, or his foreskin. There is no reason to do any of it, and it will only serve to harm him. If he, for some god awful reason, wanted to do it as an adult, oh well. I gave him that choice.
So, how many of you would approve of me removing my daughter's clitoral hood? Any takers? How many of you want that done to yourself?
Ah. I thought so.

4:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here we go...

*gets popcorn, leans back and puts feet up on desk*

7:58 PM  
Anonymous IrishRed said...

LOL :) Yeah she is an easy enough target. Wow she is a teacher and an obvious medical expert....I looked at most of those stupid anti-circ links she had, they are mostly bullshit and nutbags. It would help if she was actually educated about what she speaks... I have never heard of a "female circumcision" siply removing the hood, I can't imagine I would be able to handle the pain from the sensitivity of not have a hood,hell I don't think I would be able to walk... She is a freak. What do you say FD?

8:23 PM  
Blogger Nykki said...

Do not baisis your stance on a hoc fallacy!! When you throw numbers and quote others include a source, like fake doc has done. Your source should not be asked for it should be automatically given

“Ah yes. How exciting that I have won an award.
The complications from a male circumcision, for your enjoyment, also include death (between 200 and 400 a year in the US, yes I will back that up if you so desire), severe bleeding, degloving, amputation, intense pain (100% of the time), and more.”

It is a given that if person has a surgery there is a slight chance of death, pain, and complication. (I don’t need to quote a source because that is common knowledge)

“A simple female circumcision is the removal of the foreskin (clitoral hood). A simple male circumcision is the removal of the foreskin.
However, the clitoris is then still protected by the labia. Still kept moist and free from abrasion. The head of the penis is not. It becomes keratinized and deadened.
The male foreskin exists for pleasure and function. The female foreskin has no such function.”

According to Marianne Sarkis who wrote the introduction to Female Genital Cutting (http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/fgmintro.html) there are three types of FGM which are Sunna, Clitoridectomy, and Infibulation . Clitoridectomyis the one you speak of here is. The defintion of clitoridectomy is the partial or entire removal of the clitoris, as well as the scraping off of the labia majora and labia minora. Also, clitoridectomy is the second of the worse stages of FGM


“Even the removal of the full clitoris only dampens pleasure, not function.
Just because something is done in a hospital versus a hut does not make it right. It is willfully and without cause removing a perfectly healthy normal part of a person's body without their consent. It is abuse and mutilation.”

Wait a moment!!! I’m confused here if it only “dampens pleasure, not function” .Then is the clitoris is still functional? If something does not work the way it was originally intended then it is not functional. Moving on
You’re stating that because the female foreskin has no use its okay to cut it off... Humm?! Then you state that the female foreskin dampens pleasure not function which ties back into the last stament I made (If something does not work the way it was originally intended then it is not functional.)
But a few sentences before you said that the male foreskin exists for pleasure and function…
What, are you against all form of cutting or just male cutting?
Then if the answer is yes, are you a misogynist?

I’m going to stop here because your argument is falling apart and to sit here and break down the whole stance would be a waste because you are stuck in you view of things. Yet I will say this hoc fallacies are based on feelings and a wee bit of facts. If you believe its wrong for your child to have it done that is your right but to inflict the idea on another person is wrong. Please please if you are going to fight for something then know all you can about it before speaking, don’t become so stuck on one thing that you block the ability to rationally come to a complete understanding of a topic. The syntax of your words in any form of communication is powerful.

11:05 PM  
Blogger Jenny said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12:01 AM  
Anonymous daisy said...

Interestingly women who have been circumcised think they are fine thank you very much. Nothing wrong with it and it's done for exactly the same reasons as male circumcision. The only reason it's still being done to US men instead of being banned, like female ones were (and that was only 10 years ago), is that the vocalisations of the religious lobby were louder and ingrained culture due to myth and superstition.


In the cut
- FGM in Indonesia, hospital circs.

THE SEATTLE COMPROMISE: MULTICULTURAL SENSITIVITY AND AMERICANIZATION
Interesting article.

MALE AND FEMALE GENITAL ALTERATION: A COLLISION COURSE WITH THE LAW?
Another interesting paper.

Circumcised women also state that they are happy with their sex lives and find that they orgasm just as well as intact women.
NewScientist.com news service


Genital Cutting May Alter, Rather Than Eliminate, Women's Sexual Sensations
Article

The Sexual Experience and Marital Adjustment of Genitally Circumcised and Infibulated Females in The Sudan
The Journal of Sex Research Vol.26. No.3, pp.375-392 August, 1989
Study

----------------------------------------------------------
""Religiously, it's recommended," said Traore who, like most Malians, is a Muslim. "And, of course, it's good for the girls' hygiene.""
" But ask Gamara what she thinks of female circumcision, a practice denounced by women's-rights activists around the world, and her response is a positive one.

"Circumcision is one of the foundations of the society," the petite, rotund woman said decisively in a recent interview in Bamako. "It helps women maintain her purity and cleanliness."
Article

The ONLY reason that Americans react the way they do to the thought of female circumcision is because it isn't practiced in their culture. It normally comes as a shock when they discover that the rest of the world equates the two practices within the whole "genital mutilation" genre, and essentially see no difference. Genital cutting is genital cutting.

Americans cut their children for the same reasons Africans do, just a different gender, and female circumcision can be a lot milder than male circumcision - but of course Americans don't want to hear that, just stick their fingers in their ears and think about infibulation (which is only about 15% of female circs).

I have more academic papers and information if anyone is interested, but really, American hypocrisy over this is just mind blowingly astonishing.

6:04 AM  
Blogger Estelle said...

Oh I am against all forms of genital cutting on an unconsenting person. If an adult wants to do it, go for it.
If you are saying the clit is so sensitive without the hood and painfully so, why are you unwilling to accept that the penis is painfully sensitive without the hood? Just because the pain happens in infancy? It's okay for a baby to be in pain because his parents wanted his penis to fit their definition of attraction (which is sick really)?
There are degrees of genital cutting for both sexes. Obviously the less you cut, the less damage is inflicted.
Since you are focusing on 'in the hut' complications of FGM, I will focus on 'in the hut' complications of MGM. Here is but one story from just one area http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?articleid=141522&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/

If it is wrong for ME to inflict MY views, why is it not wrong for parents to inflict their sexual preferences (for a circumcised penis) on a child they are supposed to love and protect? It obviously is not a loving act to decide for a child that his body is not sexually desirable to you and to lop off most of his penile nerves just so you think it will be cuter.

There is not a single medical affiliation IN THE WORLD that recommends MGM. Most countries don't allow it to happen except for religious purposes, and a religious circ is very different (still wrong, but different) than one done in a hospital.

No point arguing with people who obviously know nothing about circumcision. If you researched it for ten minutes, you'd realize what a bad idea it is. Unless, like many of you, you're too hung up on getting turned on by an infant's genitals to see clearly. Which obviously is the case. You want his penis to be desirable. TO YOU. How sick is that?

6:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Estelle, you lost most everyone by starting off with an ad hominem attack.

You and your partner are trying to say everyone else is wrong no matter what. Everyone else is stupid except you. It's trolling, and it's pretty obnoxious.

You want to convince a bunch of people of something - your style is working against you. You probably don't care, but you're not making it easy for anyone to side with you.

If anything - you're making people completely dismiss everything you're trying to fight for. You're only preaching to your choir.

If you want to preach, find the right forum. Sending hate-email and then pissing all over the comments is pointless.

Go ahead and respond with typical indignant self-righteousness, it would go right along with everything else you've done here.

Or you could be a little more enlightened, apologize to the blog author and the readers for your first approach, state it's a serious issue for you and then politely go from there.

I hope you can recognize how your antagonism is working against you.

Sincerely,
Ann

7:06 AM  
Anonymous umichm3 said...

Yes, clearly female circumcision is horrible, terrible, etc.

But if you dispassionately think about it, the ethics behind routine male circumcision are on pretty shaky ground.

Any way you slice it, you are doing an essentially irreversible surgical procedure without any indication for it other than parental request. Ever since the latest guidelines from the American Academy of Pediatrics came out that do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision, I am quite honestly troubled that clinicians continue to do it. The only reason I can think of that this continues is billing.

As far as I'm concerned, only urologists should perform circumcisions, and only when medically indicated. Religious circumcision (which is an entirely different subject altogether, and being an atheist Jew I have some opinions on that as well but will hold them for now) should be handled by religious personnel (i.e. mohels).

7:15 AM  
Blogger FASHIONABLYSLIM said...

Bloody Bitch! Bloody arrogant ignorant bitch! Female circumcision is painful, harmful and downright torture for the rest of one's life. I've lived in countries where it's done and its a crying shame these women have to live tortuous lives. If people have no clue what it's all about, they should shut the F*** up!

10:40 AM  
Blogger Chackler said...

I think I'm going to pop some popcorn, lean back and watch too...

Good response doc...

11:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Daisy's battling it out with Estelle for the prize! Is there a place for runner up?

11:52 AM  
Anonymous daisy said...

I see you made it over here "anonymous". I do not make spurious, emotion filled posts, I can back up everything I say, and provided links for all to read. I take it you take issue with the professionals who conducted the studies and wrote the articles I quoted, and indeed the ladies who themselves have gone through the process of female circumcision.

Did you read them at all?

Incidently this is also the WHO view of female circumcision:

WHO link on FGM
"The three overlapping reasons for the practice at the center of figure 1 - spiritual and religious reasons, sociological reasons, and hygienic and aesthetic reasons - seem to indoctrinate society into the practice without explicitly addressing women’s sexuality. According to these reasons, the clitoris and external genitalia are believed to be ugly and dirty, and if not excised can grow to unsightly proportions. In addition, they are purported to make women spiritually unclean. Their removal is thus required by religion."

"Like other social behaviours, the practice of FGM derives from varied and complex belief systems. It is tempting to simplify matters by isolating a piece of the behaviour and explaining it as a separate item, for example, “FGM has negative health consequences”. Yet it is crucial to see the big picture - the connections among all aspects of the behaviour. The challenge of taking the whole picture into consideration may seem daunting, but social behaviour involves a vast range of influences - defined by culture. Culture acts as a lens or filter through which people view, understand, and interpret the world. Each culture is selective in what is filtered out and what reaches the human consciousness. Some things may
pass unchanged (basic human needs) while others may undergo subtle shifts in emphasis.
The filter effect of culture has great importance for health communication programmes."


Just because you come from a different culture, do you think you have the right to criticise someone else's because you do not understand it? What makes you think that your own version of genital cutting is viewed any differently by others who are not of your culture and who do not cut anyone's genitals?

Americans do not understand FGM at all, and are culturally blind to seeing anything wrong with their own, analogous, practices.

However, thankfully, many Americans are waking up and recognising MGM for what it really is. The rate is now down to 55% circ'd, so, soon men/boys subject to this indignity will be in the minority - and already are in large areas of the USA (31% in California for instance).

2:42 PM  
Anonymous daisy said...

More links on what the ladies themselves think:

Egyptian women back circumcision

SIERRA LEONE: Female circumcision is a vote winner

Female circumcision is nearly universal in Egypt, Eritrea, Mali and Sudan

"It's tradition"

Any of those reasons look familiar?

2:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

blaa..... blaa..... blaa......

10:20 PM  
Blogger missbhavens said...

Oh, this is rich. I'm going to follow this comment thread until its closed. This is insanity. No, female and male circumcision do not belong in the same ballpark. I don't want to hear this bullshit about cultural difference and how circumcised women "back" up the procedure. "The clitoris is still protected by the labia"??? Well, not it they've been hacked off by an old shard of a 7UP bottle you dumbshit. Perhaps this woman has only been intimate with non-circumcised vajay-jays, because if she'd ever seen a woman birth a baby through an introitis that had previously been sewn shut to the dize of a dime, then sing and scream in praise that her new baby girl was born in the US and not back at home because "she will be spared from this pain of woman and be safe" then she'd probably feel differently about it.

Berk.

4:43 AM  
Anonymous daisy said...

Clearly you haven't read any of the links I provided. Most of those female circ's were done in hospitals by real surgeons under sterile conditions. Same as males in America.

Circumcised females are happy with their condition and wish it for their daughters.

Only 15% of circ's are the pharonic ones involving infibulation that you like to rant about, the rest cause much less damage, and remove less tissue than a male one. The reason you don't hear about them is because they don't cause any problems - up until 10 years ago they were carried out in the US too, on request of parents.

The only reason that you can't see the similarities, is because, crucially, you don't want to. After all, if male circumcision is genital cutting for cultural reasons, like female circumcision is genital cutting for cultural reasons, where does that leave the "civilised" people of the US?

Do you think that hurling insults and ad hominem attacks make your case stronger as you seem to be without any evidence?

5:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with Daisy.

And you all need to stop being such a bunch of meanies to her. When the mother-ship comes down from the moon and picks the selected beings to go forward onto the nether world of ultimate sugarery deserts and margaritas, me and Daisy will be hand picked to go with the "enlightened one" where we're never have to do water aerobics again like the rest of you bunch of dumbies.

If you want I'll post a long thread with links to prove it! So there!

7:53 AM  
Blogger The Red said...

First and foremost...no one is going to change anyone's mind here.

Second... the ritual of male circumcision is not practiced today for the same reasons it was initiated thousands of years ago. The reason behind circumcising a Jewish male is to create a "mark in the flesh" that symbolizes the changing of the person as a result of entering into a covenant with G-d. It's not about pleasure or pain, it's about an irrevocable change that symbolizes the irrevocable spiritual change of the covenant. Somewhere along the line it became associated with health- and social-consciousness.

It's okay for a baby to be in pain because his parents wanted his penis to fit their definition of attraction (which is sick really)?

It's not attraction, Estelle, it's Jewish law and most Jewish parents respect that for religious reasons, not for attraction. Go spew your venom at the Christians who circumcise their kids.

7:57 AM  
Anonymous monkey fan said...

Here's a link that supports Daisy's position and passes all rigors of thorough, peer reviewed research.

Why FGM is AWESOME; MGM, not so much.

8:29 AM  
Anonymous daisy said...

Very funny. (No, I didn't look at the link, all I have to do is mouse over it to see where it points).

I realise that people's minds may not be changed, or that most Americans don't give a damn about what other nations think of them; I'm just pointing out, that from the point of view of someone who comes from a culture where no genital cutting is carried out, there is no difference in the reasoning between male and female genital cutting, it's just a question of scale of damage, most female circ being analogous in terms of damage and tissue removed to male circ.

There are peer reviewed studies and papers showing that reasons for doing male and female cutting, and the way it is viewed by those it is done to is exactly the same in the cultures that practice it.

Africans and Indonesians happily cut both sexes, Americans can't see anything wrong with male cutting, and consider female cutting as revolting, everyone else considers both a damaging human rights infringement against the genital integrity of the individuals involved.

Incidently, not all Jews consider it something they have to do, check out www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

I have other information if anyone is open minded enough to want to look at it.

10:31 AM  
Blogger Talena said...

QUOTE "If something does not work the way it was originally intended then it is not functional. Moving on" /QUOTE

A circumcised penis does not work the way it was originally intended to, anymore than a circumcised vagina does.

1:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I LOVE a circumsized penis...

Many men in Africa LOVE a circumcised vulva...

4:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I fail to see an ethical difference between American women who LOVE a circumcised penis and African men who LOVE a circumcised vulva.

4:32 PM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

Wow, just wow. I liked the monkey-washing cat...

6:58 PM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

Cat-washing monkey, that is.

7:02 PM  
Blogger red again said...

Best post and reverb, ever!!!

9:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jenn said, "the parents CHOSE that circ..."

What other medically unnecessary surgery will you perform on a child if the parents request it?

Will you prescribe antibiotics for a viral infection in a child if the parents request it?

Medical doctors have a legal and ethical duty to do what is best for the patient, not what someone else wants done for cultural, social, or misguided medical reasons. For infant circumcision the patient is the baby boy, not the parents.

1:56 AM  
Blogger Laurie said...

'Just because you come from a different culture, do you think you have the right to criticise someone else's because you do not understand it?'

Last year I spent a considerable amount of time in Egypt, for a medical trip. I got the chance to talk to several nurses and doctors who work in Cairo (urban) and rural villages, and yes, female circ is very prevalent. But the reasoning behind it was that it is a social/marriage/religious issue (as mentioned before) but not a one of choice or desire. It's not acceptable to marry an uncircumcised women in Egypt - I was told by women who were circumcised (in a hospital) that the whole reason they circ themselves and their daughters is so men will have them and find them sexually pure. Those women also told me of the pain of labor and sex because of their 'beautification.' One woman specifically told me that her father had her circ so that she wouldn't want sex and therefore stay pure. They also said they'd stop if they had the ability to marry without circumcising. Words from their mouths, not mine.

Yeah culture colors our view on male circ. Egyptian culture colors their view on female circ. Both are invasive and traumatic. But to say that female circ is something that's lesser than male circ is biased and unjust- it's different, but so are male and female genitalia. It's just as traumatic, just as unwanted, and just as forced around the world as male circ seems to be in our society.

2:52 PM  
Blogger Couz said...

Oh, for the love of God. *eyes rolling*

Is male circ equivalent to female circ? Of course not.

But any way you look at it, it is still an unnecessary cosmetic procedure being performed on an infant who can't give informed consent.

Outside of the jewish community, it's going the way of the dinosaur. Get with it, people.

5:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dude, you are indeed one fucked up man. I hope and pray to never come in contact with a doctor as vile and sick minded as you.

And we wonder what's wrong with the medical community...ha. I'd love to have your blog printed out and posted for all your fellow doctors to see.

As for female and male circ? If you think the 2 are that different? You've got a lot of learning left to do. Genital mutilation on an UNconsenting patient/person is the same no matter how you, uhh, slice it.

In the name of religion, social reasons or otherwise, cutting up and mutilating someone elses genitals is simply sick and wrong. Fuck your own dick up and make it all desensitized and scarred up. But for goodness sake, honor the "do no harm" oath and leave UNconsenting patients alone.

Circ is not needed, nor recommended. Period. I think goodness for never having to work with nor deal with anyone as fucked up as you. I'd love to find out who you are and where you are. I'd like nothing more than to post your fucked up blog for your fellow doctors to see. The internet is not, after all, safe for anyone...hmmm, wonder what would happen if I did...

Retarded indeed...ha!

6:38 PM  
Blogger Heather said...

So far, no one has posted anything that has caused me to change my mind on the matter of me having my son circ'ed in the event I have any.

Go ahead and blast me all you want, because it's just words. Because at the end of the day, I really don't give a shit what anyone else thinks.

Everyone has their preference. I am exercising mine.

Instead of flaming people who are for circumcision, why isn't anyone channeling their anger and energy to the parents who lock their kids in closets and beat the shit out of them on a daily basis?

10:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Locking kids in closets and beating them only lasts their childhood. Your "preference" lasts a lifetime Heather, the child cannot escape it even when he becomes a man. Why do you want to carve your sexual preferences into your son's body? Why not leave the choice up to him when he's old enough to make that choice?

There are thousands of men restoring an approximation of what their mothers took from them at birth, they are NOT happy that the choice was taken from them. Check out Norm.org or Google "foreskin restoration" to see what men really think of your choice. I guess you don't care if your son thinks of you like that either.

There is no hiding any more, the rate is down to 50/50, better get your excuses ready for when your son comes to you and asks why you had part of his penis cut off. Because he WILL ask.

12:47 PM  
Blogger square peg said...

Locking kids in closets and beating them only lasts their childhood?

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Read this: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/violence.cfm

And that's not just some shit-ass website made up by some crackpot zealots, it's the NIH. (Not that you would even know what that is.)

I've never seen any (legitimate) journal articles examining the lasting psychological trauma of circumcised men, on the other hand.

Believe what you want and live as you like but don't be inflicting your craziness on everyone else.

5:32 PM  
Blogger Justin said...

Amen, brother.

10:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So because there's no evidence from a "study" that there is lasting psychological trauma to men, you are happy to ignore the opinions of thousands of men who are restoring what their mothers robbed from them as infants? What about the ones who suffer physically all their lives from too tight erections, bent penises, buried penises, meatal stenosis, tearing skin, or the 230 or so every year who don't get lives at all because their circ results in their death? (It only happens to someone else's child, right?)

Yeah, call anyone who wants genital mutilation to end crazy - but the last laugh is on Americans who like to reduce the penises of their sons, and spoil the sexual experiences of both sexes (not that you poor saps know any different) - the rest of the world looks at you in incredulity and horror, but I guess you're used to that.

1:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah !!!!!!!

I don't believe in "studies" either. Why should I?

It's a bunch of "respected experts" who have "analyzed" something more than I have, then they followed "research criteria," standard to the "field," and then had it "published" so it can be "peer-reviewed" in some "research journal."

What a bunch of bullshit! Just like all "science" or that bunch of bull called "gravity." What a crock. I say the jury is still out on that whole "earth is round" thing too!

Rather I depend on the random comments of anonymous trolls in the comments of some guy's personal blog for my intellectual development.

love,
another anonymous troll in the comments of some guy's personal blog.

4:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you mistook me. I don't discount "studies" or their value, but if there aren't any, then it's hard to take them into account. I don't notice you quoting any?

Just because a "study" doesn't exist to prove it, it doesn't mean that the effect doesn't exist. For all you know, there ARE men walking around psychologically damaged because their mother chose to mutilate them, especially nowadays when men are realising that only Americans, Jews and Muslims do it. Men really don't go around telling everyone how pissed off they are with their tackle!

There are certainly physically damaged men around, and many of them have discovered a cure for the lack of skin and the pain it causes both themselves and their partners in restoring their foreskins. They also regain much of the fine sensitivity that is lost with circumcision, although most circumcised men do not know (and obviously from your reactions do not want to know) that they are operating with a "blunt instrument" rather than the finely tuned one they were supposed to have had.

4:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Further to that - try asking Howard Stern what he thinks about his parents decision to circ him. (Clue: - he hates it with a passion).

Some men ARE speaking out about how pissed off they are, in fact MANY are - who do you think is trying to get this practice made illegal?

The rate is down to 50/50 circ'd intact now, it is not a minority opinion.

4:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For all of the men who have problems with their circed penises, you don't think there are men who have problems with their uncirced penises? I would wager to bet that there are thousands of guys out there who end up being circed as adults. Thousands is not so many when you think about ALL the people out there.

Howard Stern? Are you kidding me? You're going to use Howard Stern as the poster boy for anti-circumcision activism? Yeah. Cause he doesn't have anyyyyy other issues...

7:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

About 1% of intact men end up needing a circ. The same number of circumcised boys who need to have it done AGAIN because of a botch job the first time. Circ'ing a baby SO does not make sense.

Caring For Kids

Of course the main difference is that an adult circ doesn't have the complications associated with an infant circ. (proper pain relief, no danger of meatal stenosis, no healing in a urine and feces soaked diaper, no danger of too much skin being removed, a mature immune system to cope with any infections etc.) and if an adult gets a circ, at least that's by his own choice. A circ'd man who has problems is out of luck. He can spend several years stretching the skin and restoring, he will regain some glans sensitivity through having it covered again, but he cannot get back all the specialised nerves and stretch receptors that were there originally.

What's wrong with letting a child grow up and letting the man decide for himself, what are you all so scared of - that intact men really don't want a circ? (In my experience, no they don't, they are very happy with what they've got.)

7:55 AM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

The comments on this post are actually funnier than the post itself was. That's rare for the fake doctor.

12:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Because for some of us it is a religious commandment to circumcise our kids. It's not a matter of being scared to not do it. It would be like saying that we weren't going to raise our kids Jewish! And yeah yeah yeah now talk about the tiny tiny tiny minority of Jews who don't circumcise...it's like a group of reconstructionist Jews living in SF...hardly representative of the majority of Jews out there.

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of uncircumcised men are happy with their uncircumcised penises and the vast majority of circumcised men are happy with their circumcised penises...most of the guys..actually make that ALL of the guys I've talked about this issue really didn't think that much about their penises....just with them. :)

1:40 PM  
Blogger dog food sugar said...

Enlightened Fellow is right. This thread is excellent. Thanks everyone!

Can't say I've met many men unhappy with their unit regardless of childhood surgery and religion.

To each his own, people!


Fake Doctor, I love your blog.

1:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have actually seen a video of the heinous act of female circumscion done with a broken bottle piece on an 11 year old girl in Africa. It was shown in a Human Sexuality class and was the most gruesome thing I have ever seen. It caused a number of women and MEN to become physically ill. I pity the poor individual that wrote that comment for his utter ignorance.

6:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, you saw the worst possible type of female circ. I don't suppose they showed you a Xhosa male circ from Africa did they? Many boys die from that and thousands are severely injured every year, to the point that South Africa has banned circumcision for anyone under the age of 16.

Funny how everyone refuses to compare like with like, and insists on comparing American hospital male circ's with African bush female ones. Why don't you try comparing like with like, for instance an indonesian hospital female circ (which have been checked out by the WHO) with an American hospital male one, or African bush circumcisions of males and females, which are equally traumatic and unhygenic, and result in the needless deaths of children of both genders.

The problem is that you have bought into American indoctrination which is selective and biased to say the least. To anyone who has done any research on the matter in an objective way, the ignorant one is YOU. Try reading some of the links a previous commentator put up, you'll see that the issue isn't as cut and dried as you'd like to make it out to be.

4:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At the same time that they showed you the female circ, did they show you a US male one? Bet they didn't.

Try this:

Circumcision circa 1998

Or better still, visit your local hospital and see one. Over 75% of circumcisions in the US are done without any pain relief at all - I'm sure you'll be just as shocked. There's a reason why parents are not encouraged to be with their babies when it's done.

4:30 AM  
Anonymous Kristi said...

Your new award is fabulous! It's so politically-incorrect, and so needed. Do you think you could add a male version - Little Dicky Dork (dork being the penis of a baby whale, as I recall)? Maybe not. Nothing tops Bitch, You're Retarded!

5:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you see the hypocrisy in saying how we only hear about the horrible female circs, and then you post examples of bad male circs?

My son was circed by a mohel. It took 10 seconds. He cried for maybe 2. He was fine aferwards. No blood. No crying. He was not traumatized (as I know you will say). He was fine. The mohel was simply very experienced at his job. I was actually surprised that it was so quick and that my son did not react more. There were upwards of 30 other people in the room who could vouch for what I'm saying.

I really do understand some of the arguments that people who are anti-circ make. It's certainly a valid question to ask if parents have the right to make such a decision for their children. If I wasn't Jewish, I don't know if I would have circumcised my son. Probably not, because I don't really believe the health benefits are that great. I do believe the vast majority of Americans do it because they're used to it and they think it looks good.

But I also think the anti-circ people hurt their own cause by condemning male circ as mutilation (ear piercing is technically mutilation too...so is tattooing...but that word is very very harsh)and comparing it to female circumcision. The purpose of female circ is generally so the woman will remain pure and/or lose sexual sensation so she will be encourage to remain pure. This is NOT the purpose of male circ in America and the vast majority of circed men are not unsatisfied with their penises and do not have health problems because of it. By comparing male circ to female circ (however valid or invalid your argument) people will look at you like you're nutjobs.

Personally, I see a short step from where you are when you condemn circ to complete anti-semitism, and it scares me. I have seen the comments on mothering where Jews are basically called mutilators and butchers. Those threads are not up now, as they are always taken down eventually...But they are very disturbing in nature, especially in the current political climate. And you can say all you want that you don't condemn Jews, just the practice, but that reminds me of the crazy Christians who don't have gay people, just gay sex.

8:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wondered how long it would be before someone said that anyone who thinks circumcision is a human rights violation is anti-semitic. I suppose we're all Nazis too?

Have you ever considered that every time a Jewish person accuses anyone who doesn't agree with them of being anti-semitic, that you are irritating and insulting people who may have never been anything of the kind? Indeed, if they hear it enough times, it may become self fulfilling? There are certainly two Jewish posters (one male, one female, with the woman being particularly vitriolic) on the debate boards whose illogical rantings have converted more than one reader into an intense dislike of Jews in general, it's hard to remain objective in the face of such bile.

Is everyone here who doesn't agree with female circ anti-African, or anti-Islam (yes, as has been pointed out, in Indonesia and many Muslim countries, they consider it a religious duty)?

I think that anyone who does not want to educate themselves about female circ before ranting on about how vile it is (and I'm not disagreeing, I think that ALL genital cutting is horrible) but who happily cut their own children are the hypocrites.

How can anyone who says "don't cut anything off children's genitals" be regarded as a nutcase? Don't you think that says more about the society that requires it rather than the person trying to get them to leave their children's genitals in the same state they were born?

Incidently there are several Jews that regularly post on Mothering, and there have never been any posts as you describe - although of course it's impossible to prove a negative, and as you say, no one will find negative comments about anyone's religion. They have a very strict UA and any occasional posts that could be taken to be about religion are removed very quickly; for this reason, no one posts anything remotely religious, and quite frankly, I don't believe you.

What was posted wasn't a bad circ, that was a normal hospital circ.

10:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For what it's worth, I don't think parents should be allowed to tattoo their children, or pierce their ears either. (Although ear-piercing isn't quite in the same league as cutting off a large and sensitive part of their genitalia).

How would YOU feel if one of your relatives or your partner decided that your newborn would look great with a full body tattoo? Do you think it's a parent's right to do it?

10:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I completely disagree. There have been NUMEROUS posts on Mothering that have offended Jewish members. I have seen them with my own eyes. Yes, they are mostly removed because religious discussion is not allowed on the anti-circumcision board, but not before many people have seen the posts.

For example...some of the offensive posts...

"...there are out there that want to minimize the perception of the procedure as much as possible to protect themselves. As The New Testament says "Beware of the deceivers" because that's exactly what they are trying to do."

(So Jews are liars...the reference to the New Testament is very nice.)

(About a female mohel...)
"It's scary that this kind of sickness is considered ok - and people actually bring her their babies and pay her to satisfy her deranged desires. Ick, ick, ick."
(So, she's a mohel because she is a pervert who likes to cut babies?)

Ah, yes! Not only genital mutilation, but convienient genital mutilation. Not genital mutilation in a sterile environment but genital mutilation in an unsterile environment!

(About using a mohel vs. circucising in a hospital)
"Basically, male circumcisions done by a mohel is no different that female circumcisions done in Africa except that mohels charge more than a doctor doing it in a sterile environment, with emergency resusication equipment, with pain management, safer instruments and malpractice insurance. If you're Jewish, you also get a bunch of pretty words spoken."
(Wow. That's really nice...so to him the bris ceremony is just a bunch of pretty words spoken...he clearly has a deep understanding of the brit milah ceremony!)

These are just a few examples of the offensive and rude things I've seen (you can see them too by doing a search at the site for bris or mohel). Most of the truly nasty ones are removed....next time I see some I'll save them. :)

I don't think that all intactivists are anti-semetic by any means, but I think that some people let their anger over this particular issue cloud their opinions of an entire people, and I think that their strident views about this issue can easily be used by true anti-semites to hurt Jewish people.

And yes, people will perceive you as nutcases because most people in America do not believe that male and female circumcision is the same thing. Whether I am right or wrong is not the point. My point was that if you want people to decide not to circumcise (which I believe is what you want) it would be better if you didn't come off to the majority of people like zealots--because then you are not taken seriously.

12:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You just happened to save those posts did you? Or did you just make them up, after all I could make up all kinds of things and say they'd been posted on some board or other but removed. No links or proof I suppose?

Of course not, just more unfounded allegations to smear someone (or in this case an entire community) who doesn't agree with your views. It never ceases to amaze me, the length pro-circ people go to justify the unjustifiable.

1:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why would a Mohel cut non-Jewish babies if s/he didn't enjoy it?

Is it not true that a non-Jewish circ by a Mohel IS necessarily done without all the facilities of the hospital? Is is not possible that medical sterility IS sacrificed for convenience?

I'm not talking bris here, Mohels also cut non-Jewish babies, do you really think that is right, when they are practising a medical surgery on a newborn without any religious input? Personally I think Mohels should be restricted to religious circumcisions only, and everyone else should have their surgery in a hospital with proper medical backup available.

2:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=421092

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=386028

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=329291

6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would guess that most mohels do not often perform circs on non-Jewish babies. Why? It's very expensive. It costs about 1000 dollars (at least in my experience) and insurance doesn't cover it. Why would most non-Jews want to pay that?

Why would a mohel cut a non-Jewish baby? It sounds like the woman in the article was a midwife who did it anyway and then decided to become a mohel. So why would she do it? For the money? Because she believes that in the end it's better for the baby?...she says so in the article...whether you agree with her or not. Do plastic surgeons perform surgeries because they get off on causing people pain???? That's just bizarre logic.

Is it less sterile? It seemed very clean to me. From what I've heard from my own doctor it seemed quicker and less painful than circs done in the hospital.

Was it convenient? I think that's an odd question. It would have been much more convenient to have the circ done in the hospital rather than wait 8 days and do it in our home with us watching.

Some mohels are doctors. I don't see any reason why they could not perform a circ in a hospital...although I am not a doctor...ask the fake doc.

6:50 PM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8:15 PM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

The non-sequiturs/logical fallacies just keep coming. From the left, from the right, everywhere, everywhere I tell you! Oh, what are we going to do? Let's list them all. There's the "ad hominem", the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc", the "argumentum ad populum", the "argumentum ad ignorantiam", the "petitio principii", and the ever useful "straw man", oh I almost forgot the "slippery slope." How many can you find?

8:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no point in discussing anything further with a Jew that pulls the "anti-semitic nazi" card.

To compare someone who tries to defend helpless children against unnecessary genital alteration, no matter what their gender, creed, color or race, to people who systematically murdered over 6 million men, women, and children (it wasn't solely Jews remember, gypsies, gays, mentally handicapped and others were also exterminated) is beyond despicable. Do you really think that causing such gratuitous offence helps your people?

Ugh.

12:18 AM  
Blogger Becca said...

This whole argument aside - It's definitely admirable that all these people with such strong and supported (and very 'politely' worded) opinions are not even willing to leave their names on their own posts.

8:52 PM  
Blogger dog food sugar said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4:11 AM  
Anonymous John said...

Anonymous said...
"There is no point in discussing anything further with a Jew that pulls the "anti-semitic nazi" card....Do you really think that causing such gratuitous offence helps your people?"

Wow. No wonder you don't have the balls to sign your name to your hater comment!

How morally convenient that your zealous opinion of one issue allows you to roll in your Jew hate too. Way to be offensive while accusing that of another.

And by the way - you're the one who Godwined the thread.

A lot of the folks here need to look up the argument fallacies that Enlightened Fellow listed. That's why you sound like a bunch of nuts.

And of course the spell check is always a good idea.

love, John

An uncut Grade A American Male - so suck it!

12:49 PM  
Blogger Sarah said...

Wow. Why am I always late to the juicy debates? Oh, well - I'll leave my comment anyway.

Firstly, there's a lot of apples-and-oranges stuff going on here. Female circumcision covers everything from removing the clitoral hood under sterile conditions to horrific mutilation with a dirty piece of broken glass. If you ignore the existence of the former, then of course the statement that female circumcision is less severe looks pretty silly. However, I think it's fairly obvious that the former was in fact what she was referring to, which would mean you'd need a rather better argument than you've provided for the granting of this particular award.

As for the counter-argument that you did provide, I'd have to say that it needs a bit of work. It seems to boil down to two points - "But look at all these horrible complications that can occur from female circumcision!" and "Well, I was circumcised and I'm just fine." I presume you can see the fallacy in the second for yourself (if not, I will be happy to direct you to a blog post I have previously made on what I refer to as the 'My Anecdote Trumps Your Data' argumentative fallacy). So, I shall restrict myself to pointing out that nearly all the complications you list can also occur in male circumcision, and that this list therefore proves nothing whatsoever about the relative severity/eeeeevilness of the two procedures. (Though, admittedly, you got me on 'childbirth complications'.)

2:28 PM  
Anonymous Amelia said...

Circumcision by Urologist-Mohel

It's an educational video, from a genuine Mohel-who-is-also-an-MD.

Enjoy :)

12:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting. The circumcision in that video took 10 times as long as my son's, done by a mohel in the traditional way.

11:23 AM  
Blogger sadielady said...

"There is no point in discussing anything further with a Jew that pulls the 'anti-semitic nazi' card." ... "your people" ...

holy crap, batman!

12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

isn´t mutilation of a minor a crime where you live?

2:55 PM  
Blogger An Enlightened Fellow said...

Again, I cry fallacy.

7:05 PM  
Blogger Kyla said...

Somehow I missed this post, along with all the outrageous claims and logical fallicies in the comments section. I have to say, it was an interesting read for someone who hasn't quite made up her mind regarding her own future sons (if there ever shall be any). Just wanted to add my two cents in the form of three different statements:

1. Awesome post, Fake Doctor. Hilarious!

2. Can't foreskin get really infected and have to be removed anyway? I would imagine that's a main reason that MGM has stayed in American culture for so long - if you do it at birth, the kid doesn't remember the pain, and there's no chance for it to get infected later. FGM doesn't have this advantage, as far as I know. Just a thought...

3. The video of a monkey washing a cat made my day.

4. It was one of the anonymous trollers who brought the term "Nazi" into play here... which John pointed out, but I don't think we appreciated the full hypocrisy of that incident. Seriously, guys, if you're going to make outragous statements, be like Daisy and Estelle and at least leave a name, if not a website...

That is all. Keep rockin' it, Fake Doc!

7:04 AM  
Anonymous Daisy said...

2. Can't foreskin get really infected and have to be removed anyway? I would imagine that's a main reason that MGM has stayed in American culture for so long - if you do it at birth, the kid doesn't remember the pain, and there's no chance for it to get infected later. FGM doesn't have this advantage, as far as I know. Just a thought...

No more than any other body part, but you wouldn't consider removing any other part of a child's body pre-emptively would you?

85% of the world's men live very happily with their foreskins exactly where they should be, it's only in North America that there seems to be this problem with "infections" and even then, it's only 1% of intact boys that get circumcised later - the same number of circumcised boys that need to have it done AGAIN because of a botch the first time.

Caring for Kids

The evidence would appear to suggest that either North American men have uniquely defective penises, or that the medical profession have been handing out erroneous advice on the care of the intact penis (proper advice, "do nothing, leave it alone, DO NOT RETRACT THE FORESKIN FOR ANY REASON") leading parents to cause all these infections, I believe it is the latter rather than the former.

Care of Intact Penis

There may also be a connection with the amount of money changing hands for a relatively quick operation which has ensured that it has carried on in North America. It quickly died out in the UK when doctors could no longer charge for it when the NHS was launched in 1948. In N America they charge for the operations and then also sell the foreskins to the biomedical companies - who is going to discourage a multi-million dollar industry? Especially when parents make it so easy for them.

3:50 AM  
Anonymous Jake said...

I have a hard time understanding how someone could attach themselves so violently to this "issue."

Still, it is amusing to poke fun at those like daisy who do.

"you wouldn't consider removing any other part of a child's body pre-emptively would you?"

Assuming you have a child, do you cut his/her hair? You are removing a part of their body preemptively to keep them from looking unkempt. I call for a stop to the mutilation of your child's head. Let the hair grow naturally until he/she is old enough to decide if he/she wants to have it cut.

"it's only 1% of intact boys that get circumcised later - the same number of circumcised boys that need to have it done AGAIN because of a botch the first time."

Ok, I'm unsure how a foreskin that has been removed can be removed "AGAIN", but aside from that, if the same percentage of intact boys are getting the procedure done later as those who are having to go through it "again", then there is no difference between the two options as far as onset of morbidity goes. Therefore, this argument is no support for the idea that circumcision is evil. According to you, one percent of boys will have foreskin problems whether they have a circumcision or not.

"proper advice, 'do nothing, leave it alone, DO NOT RETRACT THE FORESKIN FOR ANY REASON"

Well, the link you provided gives very clear instructions for retracting the foreskin throughout life, once the boy has reached puberty. So, I'm not sure why you've stated that the foreskin should never be retracted for any reason. It seems to demonstrate a marked lack of knowledge concerning the subject you profess to know so much about.

I would think a much better argument against circumcision could be formulated along the lines of medical ethics, rather than blindly stabbing in the dark, as you are doing. How about applying the Georgetown Mantra to the issue? Does circumcision respect the autonomy of the patient? Does it involve beneficence? Is it nonmaleficent? Are circumcised babies treated justly? Answer those questions considering both sides of the issue in your answers, then I'll be less likely to dismiss your argument as the squawkings of an ignorant chicken on a soapbox.

11:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You think that amputating part of someone's body is like cutting their HAIR???

Wouldn't it be more like shaving all their hair off and then burning out the hair follicles with acid to make sure it never grows back again?

Probably just as painful too.

1:35 AM  
Anonymous daisy said...

If you'd bothered to read the thread Jake, you'd realise we were talking about care of infants. Forced retraction of infants and small children before separation has occurred appears to be the cause of endless infections - the same as it would cause endless infections to be cleaning out and douching little girls vaginas. Even after separation has occurred washing should be neither vigorous, nor with soap -which can irritate-, swishing with water should be enough to keep a pre-pubertal child clean.

The "leave it alone" advice is aimed at parents, who otherwise seem to be unable to keep their hands off their childrens genitals and insist on peeling foreskins back for cleaning, thereby causing the irritations and infections that, when presented to a cut happy doctor, result in a circumcision.

Intact cultures do not have all these problems, I take it you are of the opinion that American men are uniquely defective then, rather than the victims of bad care advice?

6:07 AM  
Anonymous betty said...

UGH!

Die already!

Here I'll summarize the thread:

I know more than you.
No, I know more than you.
You're sick.
No you're sick!
I'm smarter.
No I'm smarter.
*Pointless slanted link to suspicious research*
*Another pointless slanted link to suspicious research*
*Angry posts about how no one read the links*
*Thread runs its course and begins to end*
*Nutcases haven't had enough - continue to accuse the other of a bunch of bullshit.*
*Pointless retort.*
*Another pointless retort.*

More cat washing monkeys please because that's the only rational post in this entire thread. "Suck it," was pretty good too.

10:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

" "Suck it," was pretty good too."

Well at least he was intact...YUM.

2:22 PM  
Anonymous Jake said...

Ok, I don't know about everybody else, but Daisy has convinced me never to get circumsized. Through her razor sharp reasoning ability and incomparable wit, she wins the prize.

10:22 PM  
Anonymous Jake said...

:P

4:26 AM  
Anonymous jake said...

It should be known that the first jake to post in this forum had never heard of the jake from England which someone (I'm assuming Daisy, as he seems to be her archenemy) linked to in the above comment. After a bit of further delving into the subject, this first jake does, however, find it humorous that there are two people who consider this to be such an important topic that they need to smoodge their conflicting opinions all over the internet in some sort of cosmic, yet sadly unimportant, circumcision jihad/ global war on male member terrorism.

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Strange that the most passionate arguments against circ are from those who don't even possess a penis......

The best sellers are those that know their merchandise.

11:47 AM  
Blogger LastHope said...

My son, who is now 4, was not circumcised because I didn't want to expose him to that kind of pain at a few days old. He is now facing circumcision under a general anaesthetic because he keeps getting infections in his foreskin, causing his penis to ache and itch. I can't tell you how much I regret not having it done right away.

12:18 PM  
Blogger Ali said...

Pwned Lol. You get em' TDF! :D

11:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Circumsizes help prevent AIDS.
whoops, sorry anti-snippers. Go swirl your lattes and support abortion.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/63744.php

3:07 PM  
Blogger sexy said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,按摩棒,跳蛋,充氣娃娃,情境坊歡愉用品,情趣用品,情人節禮物,情惑用品性易購,A片,視訊聊天室,視訊,視訊聊天,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,聊天室,UT聊天室,免費視訊,視訊交友,免費視訊聊天室

免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,日本A片,免費A片下載,性愛

A片,色情,成人,做愛,情色文學,A片下載,色情遊戲,色情影片,色情聊天室,情色電影,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色,情色視訊,免費成人影片,視訊交友,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,言情小說,愛情小說,AIO,AV片,A漫,av dvd,聊天室,自拍,情色論壇,視訊美女,AV成人網,色情A片,SEX,成人圖片區

情趣用品,A片,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,色情網站,免費AV,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人網站,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,成人影片,情色網


情趣用品,A片,免費A片,日本A片,A片下載,線上A片,成人電影,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,微風成人區,成人文章,成人影城,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,臺灣情色網,色情,情色電影,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,麗的色遊戲,情色論壇,色情網站,一葉情貼圖片區,做愛,性愛,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,美女交友,做愛影片

av,情趣用品,a片,成人電影,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,aio,av女優,AV,免費A片,日本a片,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,聊天室,美女交友,成人光碟

情趣用品.A片,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,色情遊戲,色情網站,聊天室,ut聊天室,豆豆聊天室,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,免費A片,日本a片,a片下載,線上a片,av女優,av,成人電影,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,成人網站,自拍,尋夢園聊天室

8:40 AM  
Blogger viagra said...

Viagra promises to return the sexual element in your life but before consuming this medicine you must understand the drug and mentally prepare your self to deal with ED. As you overcome the psychological aspect the physical side is automatically taken care off. http://www.viagraforce.com

12:24 AM  
Anonymous Buy Tamiflu said...

As I know circumcise is an ancient tradition of many peoples. It's simply ridiculous to hate it!

5:51 AM  
Blogger TRamp_ChiLDRen said...

Thank you very much for this information.
Good post thanks for sharin.
I like this site ..
heRgüN koNTRoL eDiLip LiNk yeNiLeNeN siTeDeN heR TüRLü müzik ve eN öNemLisi ARabesk Rap iNDiRmek içiN siTemizi ziyaReT eDiNiz
seks aNıLaRıNızı TazeLemek içiN hazıRLaNmış sikiş izleme siTesi
rokettubenin bi yan sitesi geldi yeni çıktı fırından yepyeni videolarla rokettube izleyebileceğiniz taptaze yepyeni çıtır çıtır site
heR TüRDeN porno videoLaRıN oLDuğu biRçok siTe aRasıNDaN seçiLmiş ve hazıRLaNmış bi siTe

2:53 PM  
Blogger Saad Amir said...

This ha been informative for the peoples.So because of this it has been very effective for the peoples.
Thanks...
regards, saad from
University of Asia Pacific
Indraprastha University

6:45 PM  
Anonymous Derick said...

Gosh, there's a lot of helpful information above!
loan calculator | scat porn | sexy aprons

11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you very much for giving out that news, I looked for this earlier but could get this no more than there and camiseta de futbol Create more!

8:29 AM  

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home